Podcast Episode 76 Transcript – Paul Libin
Ken: Hi, everybody. Ken Davenport here. So I’m going to make this introduction super short so we can get to this titan of a guest we have today. Ladies and gentleman, please stand as I welcome to the microphone the winner of the Tony Award for Lifetime Achievement, Mr. Paul Libin. Welcome, Paul.
Paul: Good afternoon, Ken. I’m going to quit right now, I’m way ahead!
Ken: Oh no, you’ve got a lot more to do! Mr. Libin is the executive director of Jujamcyn Theaters, he has produced over 250 Broadway and off-Broadway shows in his over 50 years of service to our industry. In those 50 years he’s been an actor, he’s been a director, stage manager and much, much more. He was the president of the League of Off-Broadway Theatres and Producers, he was the chairman of the Broadway League, he is the president, aka the theatre owner, of Circle in the Square Theatre. He has seen it all and he has the stories to prove it. So, Paul, let’s get to it – what was your very first job in the theatre?
Paul: My very first job in the theatre, I was a gopher for Jo Mielziner. I had just graduated Columbia School of Dramatic Arts, I had come back and finished my last year on the GI Bill in 1950, 1951 was when the semester ended. Forgive me – that’s when I came to New York. It was 1956 when I came back and finished at Columbia on the GI Bill. I started as an actor, had three seasons of Summer Stock, then got drafted at the tail end of the Korean War, and while I was in the army I started a theatre group which gave me an opportunity to direct and design and produce. The taste of that was so rich and rewarding I decided I had to be involved in production, so when I finished my last year at Columbia – I had taken a lighting course with a gentleman named Eddie Cook, Edward Cook, who owned a company called Century Lighting which was the premiere lighting rental company on Broadway in those days, and I passed my test with an A+ and he said all the room was at the top, so I figured once I graduated I would contact him and see if he could help me get the kind of work I wanted to get involved in, and I went down to his office which was in an old, well it probably wasn’t an old warehouse, it was a warehouse on 44th Street or 43rd Street and between 10th and 11th, if I remember correctly, and I walked in and I told him I was looking for work and he immediately offered me a job and I mustered up all my strength to say that I didn’t want to work in a lighting company, I wanted to be involved in production on Broadway. And he looked at me and I was very polite in my apology for not taking his offer instantly and he picked up the phone and called Jo Mielziner, who was a good pal of his. He was the premiere scenic designer of his day, having designed shows such as A Streetcar Named Desire, Death of a Salesman, South Pacific, Mr. Roberts, The King and I, he had it all locked up in terms of that work and he had a magnificent studio at the famous Dakota apartments on 72nd Street and Central Park West, and I rushed up there on the subway and walked in and was taken by everything I could see – his sketches on the wall and paintings – and we started to chat and he asked me a lot of questions about my life and I asked him a few questions about his life and we talked for about 45 minutes and he clarified that I would have to do whatever had to be done around the office – to me that meant a gopher, I would get coffee, I’d go get the mail, I’d take the garbage out, whatever I had to do, deliver a package, a script, pick one up – and he said to me “When would you like to start?” and I said “Now,” and so I started working for him right then, right from interview to work. It was a very special kind of experience because I was so excited, having been inspired by seeing a production of Arthur Miller’s Death of a Salesman, wanting to be in the theatre, wanting to be an actor, here was the man who designed the set, Elia Kazan directed, and the magic of that set, I subsequently learned, was so important to the success of the play, as I grew older in the business and understood all the components and how they came together in a production, and I remember working for him for a few weeks and my wife said to me “What are you getting paid?” and I said “You know, I haven’t talked about that…” so the next morning when I walked in I said “Mr. Mielziner, I got so involved in starting to work here, I want you to know I must be paid and I want to know what my salary is going to be,” and he said $40 a week and I said that was great. Being a young, ambitious kid, I kept my eyes and ears open and he was in the process of actually producing a musical starring Ethel Merman called Happy Hunting and I was eager to do whatever had to be done – deliver things, pick up things, remove things, fix things, whatever had to be done – and I had a lot of interaction with him about fulfilling whatever the task was and I kept my eyes and ears open and I heard one of the assistant stage managers was leaving the show and I told him that I had past experience of being a stage manager at Summer Stock and all of that, which was a bit of a fib but, nonetheless, I knew I could do it and I became an assistant stage manager to Ethel Merman. It was my first Broadway show, it was 1956, I joined Equity, having not been successful in my Broadway auditions in the prior years, before I went into the service, and I started working there. While I was working there, there were some very talented and creative people involved, working in his office at the time. There was Ming Cho Lee who was an assistant to him, to Mr. Mielziner, Pat Zipprodt was an assistant to Irene Sharaff, who was going to be the costume designer on the Ethel Merman musical Happy Hunting, and Word Baker was a production assistant who helped in the casting and we started talking among ourselves and decided that we wanted to do an off-Broadway play, while we were working for Mr. Mielziner and Pat Zipprodt working for Irene Sharaff. We undertook to do it and we raised some money and we found a theatre and we did it and it was a big success, it was a revival of Arthur Miller’s The Crucible, it was the first revival of the play.
Ken: You produced the first revival of The Crucible?
Paul: Off-Broadway, 1958, and I never looked back after that. I was always involved in producing shows, general managing shows. There was a whole host of shows I got involved in, both producing and general managing. In 1963 we built a theatre to do The Crucible in because we wanted to do it in the round and years later Ted Mann was looking for a place to do Six Characters in Search of an Author, the Pirandello play, and we had a meeting, because he had a show playing at The Circle, and we had a second meeting and in the third meeting I suggested, “Well, why don’t we just do it together?” We shook hands and we did Six Characters and that was a partnership that lasted for 50 years at The Circle. I became his partner and he became my partner and we worked together all those years with not a piece of paper between us, we just did it, show after show, year after year. And I did some other shows outside of that at the same time and then concentrated totally on Circle in the Square and we built the new theatre on 50th – well, we had someone build it for us – and it was a big success when it started. It was not for profit, we used to do four shows a year and it worked out quite beautifully.
Ken: That first show, that revival of The Crucible, what made you think that you could produce it? What gave you the courage to do something like that? You were how old?
Paul: I was, I think, 26-27. I was 27 by the time we did it. In 1958 I would have been 27. What prompted me about the play was I was always tuned in to what was going on in the world, current events. When the original play was done on Broadway I was tuned into the play – I was actually a student at Columbia and I watched the play from backstage. Somehow I got an invitation – I don’t know how, I can’t recall the circumstances, but I remember standing backstage of the Martin Beck theatre, listening to this play and just being enthralled by it, because, when the whole thing with Roy Cohn and the red scare and everything in America, I was in Fort Dix, New Jersey, when he came to get his friend out of the army when the US army McCarthy hearings were taking place. So I was tuned into that, politically, and coming from a socialist family I was always aware of everything going on so I just thought it was an important play about America at the time, and of course when we decided to do it I reached out to Kay Brown, who was then the agent for Arthur Miller at an agency in those days called MCA – Music Corporation of America – and I told her we were doing the play and she said, “Well, we have to talk a little bit more about it and where you’re going to do it.” So we were hunting around for a space to rent and we decided we wanted to do it in the round and in those days the only place available to do it in the round would have been Circle in the Square, and at Circle in the Square shows were being produced by Ted Mann, so we decided we would try to find our own theatre and I found an empty ballroom in a hotel on 32nd Street and Broadway called the Hotel Martinique, and I went and talked to the owner and I told him what we wanted to do and I tried to describe how we wanted to use the space, because it was about 60’x60′, the perfect space for a small, 200 seat theatre, and I said the stage would be in the middle and he said to me, “You mean like a nightclub?” and I said, “No, no, no, it’s not a nightclub, it’s a theatre,” and he said, “Well, we can talk,” so I immediately got on the phone and called Kay Brown and said, “We found the theatre!” and she said, “Well, Mr. Miller would have to see the theatre,” and I said, “Of course.” It happed that, at that particular moment in life, he was married to Marilyn Monroe and I had made an appointment for him to come and see the theatre, I was never a devout religious person but I kept praying maybe he would come with Marilyn Monroe and if the guy owning the hotel would see Marilyn Monroe he wouldn’t question anything about anything, and then he came and he arrived with Marilyn Monroe to look at the space and it was pretty overwhelming because I was talking to Arthur Miller when the owner of the hotel came in and he saw me and he came right to me and his wife was off to the side talking to one of my colleagues and he didn’t see her. I introduced him to Arthur Miller, I don’t know if he knew Arthur Miller at the time but he was reasonably polite – and he was a gruff Brooklyn guy, when you shook his hand you wanted to make sure you had all five fingers on the retreat when you took your hand back – and I said, “I’d like you to meet his wife, Miss Marilyn Monroe,” and this guy, he could hardly speak, he could hardly shake his hand, and I was very grateful that, well I called him to come down, but all that happened in one kind of circuitous event. So then we parted and I got back in the subway and of course I told him he could call me at my office, which was not my office, it was Jo Mielziner’s office, but being a young, ambitious hustler I used every resource I could to impress or whatever I had to do to get things done, and by the time I got back to 72nd Street and Central Park West through the subway system, Mr. Foreman had called me and wanted to know when we were going to sit down and make a deal and that’s when it all started. We built this theatre – I was a very hands-on guy, I still am – we put it together and I had bought the theatre seats, colossal canvas-backed seats that I had bought, there was a gentleman at the time who had a music tent in Lambertville, New Jersey, and I bought the seats for $1 apiece, because I didn’t know how long we would run so I spent $200 on the seats, because they were all from this summer theatre event, and the show opened, it was a big success, it was directed by Word Baker, it had Barbara Barrie playing Goodie Proctor, an actor named Michael Higgins played John Proctor. It was a challenge because, as we were moving closer to get to opening, I mustered the courage up to call and speak to Arthur, telling him I wanted him to be there but I didn’t want him to be there on opening night because if he came with his wife on opening night the audience would have a rough time watching the show because she was such a stellar attraction in those days. He said, “No, we understand, we’ll come by some other night and kind of slip in at the last moment.” So it was a big hullaballoo that night, on opening night, there were a lot of people, a big crowd expecting to see Marilyn Monroe and she didn’t come up and I was trying to quieten them down, I got into a scuffle with some young people who wanted to see her and the police came and broke it up and later someone said to me, “Boy, you have a cut. Your jacket is all ripped in the back,” and I took my jacket off and realized I was actually cut and had a small bloodstain on my shirt and realized someone had gotten a little rambunctious. The press agent was an old timer and there was a reporter there from the New York Post who wanted to interview me and I just wasn’t cooperative. Saul Jacobson was his name, he came over to me and he says, “Paul,” he puts his arm over me, “They’re going to write a story whether you cooperate or not so you might as well cooperate – if they’re asking you questions, answer the questions as best you can,” and so they started talking to me and they asked me where I lived and all that. I couldn’t tell them where I lived so I made up an address, that I lived on Park Avenue.
Ken: See, listeners, I promised you he had the stories and he does – Marilyn Monroe, he gets cut on opening night and he’s lying about where he lives. A good producer, for sure! So over the past 50-60 years of your career you’ve been very active in labor negotiations. You’ve seen a lot of changes, I’m sure – we’re involved with them right now, both of us – what’s the biggest change you’ve seen in how the negotiations with unions from the early days of organization to now?
Paul: Through the years, as these contracts have gotten developed, they’ve become more codified, very specifically about all kinds of different tasks and maybe certain people get paid for certain tasks. I recall the earlier days, things were more general, they weren’t as carefully defined in terms of task, and I suppose through the years assignment of tasks related to cost and expense is what developed to make the contracts much more complex in terms of their jurisdiction and the work that gets done and I think that all came as a result of certainly, I would say, my early career was always off-Broadway but shortly after I started my partnership with Ted Mann in the ’60s I was involved in Broadway and off-Broadway – off-Broadway from the mid ’50s, for 30 years off-Broadway, I was also involved in Broadway at the same time – and I think the codification of assignment and expense and the duties that people have and the variety of contracts, not just stage hands but everything, directors, scenic designers, wardrobe people, as the business has gotten more complex and more technologically evolving in terms of accomplishing the magic of the theatre, there has been particular attention to how people get paid, and that compartmentalization of expense has pushed the cost up dramatically from what it was, aside from the fact that, obviously, what people were paid in the 1950s is a lot different than what they’re paid now, but all reinforced by assignment. The same thing with musicians – there are more musicians working on Broadway getting less money now with the doubling of instruments and technology, reproduction of sound and whatever enhancements, people are getting paid more and, for me, I think that’s the dramatic change in that application of that circumstance.
Ken: And do you think that will just continue? Will we continue to compartmentalize more?
Paul: It seems to me there has to be a line somewhere. The expenses have gotten so complex and so costly, asides from being complex, that it seems to me that the price of tickets just can’t keep going up, up, up and up. If we have to only rely on 1% of the people who have the money to come to the theatre, the theatre will die. Admission into the theatre is a very important consideration. I don’t know the numbers but it seems like for the theatres that we have remaining – years ago there were more theatres but now the number runs between 40 and 50 theatres in the Broadway world – they seem to be full and people keep coming and the prices go from very little to very high, that landscape of pricing is very complex, and I know many people complain about it all the time, but at the same time, every night there are seats available at very low prices for people to come and see the theatre, if they’re attracted to something, and I think the taste of theatre goers has changed dramatically.
Ken: In what way?
Paul: I think there’s a lure for a form of entertainment as contrast to enlightenment of experience and dramatic experience. Years ago there were so any plays being done on Broadway; there’s much fewer plays done every year on Broadway, simply because I think technology, television and through other methods of electronic viewing of content, we now see things more easily than we did years ago. The format and sophistication of the creative aspects of serious plays, of subject matters that are of interest to the viewers, is available in so many different forms that that has satisfied an appetite for people – the ability to watch on television, if you’re intrigued by a particular show or series, you can watch the whole thing, just pig out on it and sit there for a weekend and just watch all 20 episodes, or you can watch them when you have time to watch them, as opposed to having to be someplace, and I think that there’s a refuge that the theatre has become for people, certainly through the last economic downturn that we had in the US economy, I remember talking to people, I remember once having a luncheon with some bankers, who are always looking for your business, where they said, “We heard that your business has done very well while our business has collapsed,” and I said, “It has,” and they said, “Can you explain it?” and I said, “If I could explain it I’d be a business man.” I always felt that during that period people came to the theatre to get away from it, because the news was so overwhelming, I mean that’s all you heard about – this business collapsing, that business collapsing, the market collapsing, you don’t have money to do this, you can’t send the kids to college, mortgages have collapsed, your home is being taken away from you – and this is a place to sit in a room with some other people and laugh and be entertained, which was a refuge from the crises of the day, or that year, or a couple of years, but there’s something about the experience that the audience has when they come and see something that is enlightening, if the subject matter is profound or it’s entertaining, that just provides this unique appetite that people have to get away from the box – when I refer to the box I’m talking about television – or the movie theatre and see something live. There’s something magical about live, when it’s working, that’s overwhelming, you’re totally overwhelmed. I remember a couple of years ago I went to see Nathan Lane in Chicago for Iceman Cometh and it was a Saturday night in Chicago at the Goodman Theatre, sold out, standing room only, and I thought, “Well, knowing the play real well, there are going to be some people who check out, they’re just not going to stay for the whole thing.” They were just spellbound; they could not leave. I don’t know if they wanted to leave but they did not leave, they were just spellbound by the experience of Nathan and Brian Dennehy and the other group of actors doing this masterful piece of writing, so there is a magic to it that’s inexplicable, for some reason, when it works.
Ken: Is there anything that you see today that’s happened on Broadway, something that’s changed, that if you think back you would think, “That will never happen. This will never happen,” and then it has? Anything that has surprised you about the changes that Broadway has undergone over the last 50 years?
Paul: Well I think the one most important thing that’s happened on Broadway over the last 50 years is when people come to attend a production, in the old days of the curtain coming down, now that total experience of immersing themselves in this magical world that we call the theatre is that things have to keep moving all the time. They can’t stop, you can’t take the curtain down and have a minute and a half of scenic change – a minute and a half is a disaster. You can have a break between the one act and the second act – you run into trouble when you have two breaks, an hour in between each. It’s clear that it’s harder for people to sit for three hours, it’s easier for them to sit for two hours. Certain dramatic material presented in 90 minutes or 120 minutes seems to be more effective because people have learned to absorb things at a higher speed than they did years ago. Years ago, everything was done with two intermissions and it started late at night – 8:30, eight o’clock. 8:30 was the traditional curtain time on Broadway in the old days and then it moved to 8:00 and now it’s 7:00. There are too many things people have to do in their lives now – either they work harder or they spend more time with their family, or more time away from their family, whatever the case may be, but they can enjoy something in two hours only because of the speed that information is absorbed. Audiences have learned to watch something and figure out the roadmap of how it’s going to happen – and of course, every once in a while when you give them a twist and turn, they’re pretty overwhelmed by that. Most people are intrigued by it, the magic of a dramatic development, whether it’s an entertainment or a serious play.
Ken: Besides yourself, who’s the greatest producer you’ve seen or the greatest piece of producing you’ve seen, if it was on a specific show? Something where you’ve sat back and been like, “Look at that guy. That’s a producer, right there.”
Paul: It’s funny, as you know last year I made a booking for Fun Home at the Circle in the Square and of course shortly thereafter Hamilton opened and it opened off-Broadway to great acclaim and I thought, “Oh, wow, I thought I’d picked the winner. Maybe I didn’t pick the winner,” and certainly they were competing, based on the fact that one was a bigger scale musical and the other one was more family oriented, a different storyline, conflict in a family, the human condition, a more intimate story. I thought, “Wow.” My secret wish was that Hamilton wouldn’t open in the season, and of course there was a lot of talk about they would move up to Broadway and open on Broadway and every night I would do my novena and beg that it wouldn’t open, and of course they didn’t open and Fun Home won the Tony award for Best Musical, which was a stretch to begin with, and a remarkable achievement, actually, with all of the competition that was available, and then my wife and I went to see the opening of Hamilton and the first number I thought was just spectacular, the second number was spectacular, I was just having such a good time, and the third number I was just all caught up in it. My wife leaned over and grabbed my arm and said, “Calm down, it’s not your show!” It’s a magical piece of producing and theatre and the other thing that’s so striking about it is that it’s very simple. I mean the content is complex but the whole undertaking, how it’s conceived and presented, it’s so magical. It’s the essence of what the theatre is about. To me, there’s a couple of things in my life that are just unique experiences. The first one, of course, is when I went to see Death of a Salesman as a young man, I had no interest in theatre, I hadn’t even gone to the theatre much as a young man, I was already in college, I went to see Death of a Salesman with Thomas Mitchell playing Willy Loman and I was absolutely overwhelmed. I was on a double date with another couple and while my friend went to get his father’s borrowed car and I was standing in front of the Erlanger Theatre in Chicago and Thomas Mitchell walked out with his collar up and the brim of his hat pulled down and I looked at him and I said, “Oh my God, Willy Loman is alive!” I was just blown away by that and I said, “That’s my destiny, that’s something I have to do. I have to do that!” and I remember coming home to my parents and telling my dad that I found my destiny. My dad said, “So what’s your destiny?” and I told him I had to be an actor and he said, “Two months ago, with a couple of friends, you bought a sailboat that you’re fixing up, you want to sail down the river to the Caribbean and then sell the boat and come back and go to school, and before that you wanted to go to the University of Chicago to study international studies.” He said, “Decide what you’re going to do and just go do it.” I said, “That’s what I’ve gotta do.” Ironically, the first part I played was in Arthur Miller’s All My Sons, so I have a long history with Arthur Miller. When I saw that production and had the great privilege and honor to do the first revival in New York of Death of a Salesman with George Scott, 25 years after the original Broadway opening, that was a thrilling moment in my life, or I should say evening. 50 years later I did it again with Brian Dennehy and that was a great production with George as well. Brian Dennehy gave me a shout out when he got his Tony award, a rich moment in my life, when you get a thank you from a great actor. Angels in America is one of the things I’m most proud about being involved in producing.
Ken: I would take just one of those, by the way. Just one.
Paul: I always say you get them once in your lifetime – I’ve had a couple of great ones in my lifetime.
Ken: Speaking of your lifetime, what do you credit your success at being able to survive and thrive in this business, which will, admittedly, beat you up every single day? You’ve not just had one big success, you’ve had many, you’re still here, you’re still doing it and, obviously, as I’m sure everyone can hear, you still love it. How do you do that?
Paul: I do love it. I just thrive on being able to be a part of assisting in the realization of a project. To me it’s just thrilling. The other thing that makes it work for me is you’re always working with new people, different people, different ideas, different ways of articulating them. I’ve worked with the biggest names in this business and it’s been one of the great, rich rewards seeing them do what they do and how they do it. I’ve had some confrontations with people but they’re motivated to do the best and I’m motivated to do the best and, ultimately, that’s it, and every once in a while you run against a personality that’s difficult but you use your smarts, you work that out, figure out a way to handle that because sometimes creative people are complex, insecure people and they swing back. You have to learn how to modulate that – sometimes you have to swing back and that’s life. You swing back, you take a punch and give one back if you have to, and I’ve done that in my life too. It’s so interesting – one of my ambitions was to have a Broadway theatre and six years after I had the Circle in the Square I remember walking west on 50th Street, looking at the marquee and thinking, “I wanted this and I’ve had it for six years and I didn’t fully realize I had it for six years, working on things, having confrontations with labor negotiations and settling them,” because we’re all in it together and it’s a wonderful collaboration of so many talented people, it’s just fun. I’ll be 86 this year and I just feel like a kid. I don’t know how to explain it; it’s just a joy.
Ken: What do you think the business will look like in another 25, another 50 years?
Paul: One of the things I always have embraced – well I shouldn’t say always because you have to have a certain perspective when you look back at theatre, I didn’t have that perspective when I started but I have it now – occasionally people will come to me and they’ll say, “You know, Paul, Broadway’s not like it used to be,” and I always have to say to them, “Don’t you understand that Broadway has never been how it used to be? That’s why it’s still here, that’s why it’s exciting, that’s why it changes.” Everything in life changes, it can’t be like it is, it just can’t, it’s always changing, that’s the whole idea, it’s a creative force, you get directors, you get writers, you get actors who come up with new ideas of how to do plays. I remember I was interviewed when Seymour Hoffman did Death of a Salesman – a reporter called me and said, “I know you’re a great fan of Death of a Salesman so which is your favorite?” and I said, “Let me tell you…” and I started off with Thomas Mitchell and after Thomas Mitchell I said I saw Lee J. Cobb do it on TV – I was not in New York then – and then I saw Dustin Hoffman do it and then George Scott do it and they were great, you know, and then Brian Dennehy and then Mr. Hoffman do it. So the reporter says to me, “So which one do you think is the greatest?” I said, “I just told you – they were all great.” That’s what’s so magical about the theatre – you can take a great piece of writing and just lay it out in front of you and put it in the hands of a great actor and it’s an exciting, thrilling moment. I remember Arthur Miller told me – I got to spend a little time with him, not a lot but a little time with him when we did The Crucible – and I remember him sharing with me his story that when he visited China one of the accomplished writers of Chinese literature at the time was talking to him and he said to Arthur, “How did you understand the Chinese family so well that you could write a play like Death of a Salesman?”
Ken: I’d love to know what he said to that. Anything in your career you would do differently if you were doing it all over again? Any regrets? Anything that you say, “I wish I would have just done this.”?
Paul: I’m not going to list, it’s just an exciting experience to go and see a play that you’re not involved in that just catches you up and takes you on journey.
Ken: Okay, my last question, which is my Genie Question – I want you to imagine that the genie from Aladdin comes to your office here at Jujamcyn, knocks on the door and says, “Paul, I want to thank you for your incredible contributions to the theatre for the last 50, 60 years, and I want to thank you by granting you one wish – just one.” What’s the one thing that makes you so angry about Broadway, that gets you frustrated, keeps you up at night, gets you pounding – I’ve heard you yell a couple of times myself, at me, which is not very pleasant, by the way – what would make you so mad, that gets you so angry, that you would ask this genie to wish away?
Paul: Well I think it’s a crime that every night on Broadway there are thousands of seats that are not occupied by people seeing something. If we could solve that problem, that would be just great. I mean obviously the hits are always at capacity but there are so many other wonderful experiences and I think, for some reason, there are too many people in the culture – I don’t know if culture is the right word – there are too many people near the theatre, physically near the theatre, who would be so rewarded by the experience, even if the production that they witnessed was not the most perfect or accomplished ones compared to the ones that shine brighter than others, that experience of being in a room with other people and laughing or crying, depending on what they were seeing, that would be a beautiful wish to be fulfilled.
Ken: Well I am no genie, I don’t have any wishes to give you but I certainly want to thank you for sitting down with us today and for your incredible contributions to the business. We forget that Broadway is still a young industry and people like you who helped build it are still here today, still doing it, and we appreciate that so very much, so thank you for that. Thanks to all of you for listening – don’t forget to subscribe. Until the next episode, I’m Ken Davenport and this has been the Producer’s Perspective Podcast.